consumer report

[T for 2]

Has anyone seen the new April Consumer Report? Article lists 2001-2010 used cars to avoid. Fords to avoid lists 03-05 Thunderbirds. no explaintions. Also, what do they think they know about the 02? Maybe some of the faults are coming home to roost.
Chas.

[DavidA]

Re: consumer report

EVERY car has it's prolems. The TBirds have the COPS and that is really all. Sure the rubber seals dry out but that happens on all cars. Consumeers reports doesn't know what they are talking about.

Every car, 5-10 years old will neeed something.

[V8 Cat]

Re: consumer report

Consumeers reports doesn't know what they are talking about.

David,
I'm coming to the defense of Consumers Reports for the thousandth time. They get their information from OWNERS of these cars. I fill out questionaires each year for them to use in their reliability studies. I have found over the years on some of the cars I have owned that these studies are spot-on. They are only compiling data owners/readers give them. There are a lot of problems with these Tbirds. Just look at all of them that come up on TBN. Today there are posts about AC compressor seal leaking, convertible top separating from the rear glass, COPS, PCM (a serious problem) and that's just in the last few hours. Some are fairly serious if you are having to pay for them and some are not. The only problem I have is why the 2002s aren't included. I don't know the answer to that. Consumers Reports does know what they are doing. Some people just don't like the message.

[00mustng]

Re: consumer report

...in 2002 Ford still believed in the product....the '02 's were built with the best components and the best intentions....late intro/early recall fiasco notwithstanding......

[XCR440SP]

Re: consumer report

David,
I'm coming to the defense of Consumers Reports for the thousandth time. They get their information from OWNERS of these cars. I fill out questionaires each year for them to use in their reliability studies. I have found over the years on some of the cars I have owned that these studies are spot-on. They are only compiling data owners/readers give them.

As someone in the auto business I have the exact opposite opinion and find consumer reports as the LAST place I'd go for reliabilty surveys. The main reason is the way they get their results is going to skew those results. By surveying only readers you won't get an accurate result. For example Toyota continually gets top ratings from them. IF you own one you expect its great and are more likely to not report something as you may think its trivial. On the flip side if your make is considered bad, you're more likely to report something.

A further issue is you'll find people with brands that are on the "bad list" will either quit getting the magazine or quit submitting surveys since they don't agree with the results. Anyone who does surveys will tell you that CR's methods will not generate correct results.

Before they started combining twins, you used to get proof of this as one would be good and the twin car may be bad (Toyota/GM twins for example).

Here's a site listing some examples :

http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/anom...?session_code=

Look back to 07 where CR had to admit they'd been wrong since they'd been automaticly giving Toyotas top ratings without checking, then the Tundra was bad even with the skewed surveys.

"Toyota quality is slipping, and Consumer Reports says it’s due in large part to the new Tundra. Evidently, Consumer Reports has found that the new Tundra, specifically the V8 4×4 model, has “below average” reliability. Even more astounding, the new Camry V6 model was also found to have “below average” reliability. Because of the poor showing of these two new models, Consumer Reports has decided that they will no longer automatically recommend new Toyota models as they have in the past. Instead, Consumer Reports says that they will now wait for a full year of survey data before making a recommendation."

Here's another good site with some thought starters anyone who uses CR as a shopping tool should read. http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

Also note that Ford has been climbing recently. Part of that is quality has improved, but even more important is that Ford (Mullaly) went to CR and let them "show" Ford how to fix things. After Ford stroked the testers at CR's ego, they got better press. This in turn will show up as better surveys as after reading the postitve reviews, readers are more likely to send in positive surveys.

As to 'Birds, I find that (based more on Lincoln LS than T-Bird, but most probelms are the same) that the cars are an average car in the reliabilty department. Engines seem to go forever, trans is average (T-Birds, early LS's had major trans issues) and have some other smaller issues (COP, heaters). However, in a survey T-Bird will score much lower than LS. The reason, expectations. The LS's will have many cars with high mileage. If you have the COP or heater valve issues at 80K miles, this is a minor issue. However many/most Birds have very low mileage and if you have the same issue with 20K miles, you find it much less acceptable and therefore major. Even though likely age caused the failure more than miles, but most owners don't realize that. My car for example just came out of storage and the valve cover gaskets are seeping. Being 9 years old, that doesn't suprise me even though its only got 20K miles, but many would be shocked that it was leaking with only 20k miles. Now if it were a 9 year old LS, it would likely have 100K plus miles and a oil seap wouldn't be any big suprise, even if age caused the issue not miles.

[Southern]

Re: consumer report

The worst "twins" I ever saw was the Ford Ranger Pickup way back in the 90s.
After it got crucified, my neighbor bought a well rated Mazda B2300 instead.
Yep, you guessed it. They were both built by Ford. In fact they were the same truck, built on the same assembly line, except for trim and nameplate.

One other thing....... that I wrote them about...
The 2003 Nissan Murano, the one I bought, stopped from 60-0 in 117 feet.
The same year Toyota Highlander stopped in119 feet.
I would have rated both SUVs excellent. The difference was insignificant.....even tho it favored the Murano.
But CR rated the Toyota brakes Excellent and the Murano Average.
When I wrote them a letter they replied..eventually...with an admission that I was "probably right". "Probably Right?" Harrumph!


A final story.
I bought a Mustang Convert in 89.
5 Liter 5 Speed.
Always wanted one so I went ahead and did it even tho CR showed this car to have a reliability of Much Worse than Average.
You guessed it.
Owned the car for 7 years.
The AC knob broke in half in year 5 or 6.
That was it.


But one thing I feel strongly about. Any bias they have is just human nature or bad sampling.
I have never seen any evidence that they do anything for any nefarious reason.

[Vintage Merlot]

Re: consumer report

I have been involved in media all of my adult life. I have known many television and news reporters and have been interviewed for reports and articles dozens on times. Never once has a reporter ever quoted me accurately. I know what I tell reporters and I see what they write.... They are always working against a deadline, they are notorious for cutting corners and even making up quotes. They all have agendas and are easily swayed and bought by industry, politics, and personal bias. Just look at the people who write and report for Fox News and MSNBC.

I have read every post on TBN in the last four years. There are not a flood of problems with "these cars" but there is a flood of interest on what to do if "you" ever have the problems being discussed. I also visit other car sites and they all have problems. Discussing problems is the reason for joining a site. This sounds impossible but I have never had one major or serious, or expensive problem with any of my cars over the last 45 years. The last four American cars averaged 198,000 miles before I simply traded them. My bird has been absolutely trouble free for 60,000 miles with the exception of the factory warranty COP replacement.

"There are a lot of problems with these Tbirds. Just look at all of them that come up on TBN. Today there are posts about AC compressor seal leaking, convertible top separating from the rear glass, COPS, PCM (a serious problem) and that's just in the last few hours." I do not buy that statement.

I can assure you that if you could survey every registered member of TBN and asked them about the above questions you would find very low percentages of owners with massive multiple problems. Believe Consumer Reports if you want. Defend them if you will. The car is no worse or better on average than any other car. ....But you do have to drive it. You can't drive it 400 miles per year and put it in storage 70% of is life and not have problems. We are a bit excessive in wanting to save the virginity of our Birds. Many are going old and will never experience the joy of the road. They will dry out, leak, rust, and grow obsolete. No grandson or grand daughter will ever care to deal with it.

So my experiences with this car and my experience in watching reporters and journalist try to beat deadlines, create buzz and cater to manufacturers makes me very skeptical of anything Consumer Reports writes.

Just my simple opinion......looking forward to driving the Bird to Texas at an average speed of 80 mph in May. Looking forward to seeing you all there. (I hear Choo Choo man has a long lost brother that is going to be introduced at the event.)

[V8 Cat]

Re: consumer report

Gosh, you would think I or Consumers Reports was attacking somebody's child here. I have never seen such a defensive bunch in all my life over a car. Yes I like the Thunderbird or I would not have bought it, but as a car, while it is unique, it is not the best car I have ever owned by a long shot. To me it is better than average and fun to drive. As a performer it is not great and has been left behind by the newer technology. I don't have blinders on when I evaluate cars I own or have owned in the past. I do a heck of a lot of research, and I have made some bad mistakes, but the Tbird is not one of them. I can see weak areas after owning and driving it for 6 years though I have had hardly any mechanical problems - but it is a "garage queen". Why do you need so many extended warranties if Tbird is so reliable and inexpensive to maintain? That is usually the first thing somebody on this site tells a prospective Tbird owner to buy. I don't need them on any of my other cars including one 1999 vehicle I traded in last fall. I stand by my statement that Consumer Reports is credible when you are dealing with their RELIABILITY studies because THE DATA COMES FROM THE OWNERS. As for some of you that take ctiticism so personally when a magazine (or website) such as Car & Driver, Consumers Reports, Motor Trend, etc or any of the news media says something negative about the Tbird, get over it.

[Vintage Merlot]

Re: consumer report

I too have extended warranty on my Bird. Used it on the heated seat switch and doubt if I will ever need it again. I'm not sure why there is such thin skin here and why the total membership of TBN does not qualify as being more expert than the paid journalists who crank out bible and verse for the stellar publications they write for. Face it, Consumer Reports is designed to sell new products not encourage you to stick with old ones. Some people are really thick and just don't get it and some people never will. I will hold my ground against Consumer Reports, Car and Driver and all the slicks any day of the week. I also say, "Free your caged garage virgins and let them excel" .See you all in Texas. It's not only the car it's also all the friends you meet while taking the ride.

[Chuck]

Re: consumer report

I usually stay out of the fray on these threads but do feel I have to comment here. I don’t think most of the replies talking about are defending the Thunderbird. I think they are simply pointing out that Consumer Reports' results are compiled from what consumers say. I know from my perspective, I typically won’t rate an experience or product unless it was bad.

[jerrym3]

Re: consumer report

The guy that runs the local Lincoln service shop says the TBird's sister, the LS, is one of the most trouble prone Lincolns he's ever seen. (What better source than a guy who fixes cars for a living? Is he trying to scare me from buying another Lincoln?)

My retro only has 18K miles, so it's still pretty low on the problem list; parking boot twice, (I'll live with it); trans valve/reflash; CD jam)

But, the LS is another story at 38K. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

roof leak
trans solenoid
oxygen sensors
steering rack
belt and some other sensor
heater control valve
window regulator
suspension bushings
COPS (3 of 8)

Overall, I like the retro, but it's a tie for third on my all time "cars I've owned and loved" hit list.

[V8 Cat]

Re: consumer report

But, the LS is another story at 38K. Maybe I'm just unlucky.
heater control valve
suspension bushings
COPS (3 of 8)

These are problems in common with the Tbird.

[NotU]

Re: consumer report

Put me in the camp with anti consumer reports.
I had a 1987 Firebird that I bought new and drove year round for 12 years with no mechanical problem, not even a minor one. According to CR that car was so dangerous and expensive and unreliable that it should never have been built. Rust made me sell it or I would still have it. It had a manual transmission and was a fun driver.
Just my humble opinion.
Randy Mattson

[94mcd]

Re: consumer report

Do you think CR would tell anyone on how many replies they based their evaluation? It would be an interesting answer and a fair way for us as owners to decide how reliable their report actually is compared to our own TBN posts. Maybe we should have an evaluation on TBN and send the results to CR. I am sure we would have more participants than they used in their evaluation.

[doubutsu]

Re: consumer report

Claude, I'm not down on CR because of anything they said about the Thunderbird, I"ve pointed out and have tried to improve the car. In my world CR has very little credibility, after all Joan Claybrook worked there.