Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

[Guest]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

I think you are out of luck, Doug.

Phil, where are the 1,000 retro users having problems with their ESP's? Even if there were 1,000 complaints, CNN doesn't care about Ford abandoning it's customers unless it's a major issue regarding consumer safety. Then, rather than a big lawsuit, Ford, or any major manufacturer, would respond. One, or 1,000, consumer problems over parts availability isn't worth CNN or Ford's time.

Ford used to have a Consumer Board. I sent a letter to them regarding a drive train vibration issue on my new 85 TurboCoupe.

Ford wouldn't fix the vibration under warranty because my drive train vibration came on over 55 mph, which was the max legal speed in NJ at the time. Per Ford, I was driving at an illegal speed.

The Board took Ford's side.

You're probably right Jerry ... 1,000 complaints wouldn't get CNNs attention, unless you were selling 'pillows.'

Yes, Ford has more lawyers and deeper pockets, some way to treat customers, but the fact is they really don't care. Maybe if a high-profile celebrity had a problem, say Jay Leno. But if Leno had a problem, they'd take care of him. The average 'Joe' ... no.

If you're right, and you probably are, it's only worse news for Retro owners as far as Ford is concerned. If bad publicity isn't a concern, and all they have to do is fight you with their attorneys and money, not much hope for the typical Thunderbird owner.

[carntz]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

Please keep this thread going as I for one and I assume a lot of other owners are interested in seeing and finding a way to beat up Ford for their bad attitude and sheer abandonment of their customers. Maybe some one should gift Jay Leno or better yet President Elect Trump a retro with a bad PCM that is still under ESP

Fat Chance HUH!

[Rondor]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

The option of litigation against Ford is an uphill battle to say the least. I know others here have tried, and as far as I can recall, none got the resolution they wanted, and all waited a long time and endured a lot of obstacles for any resolution.

Suing a Co. like Ford is like suing the Government. Both have deep pockets and staff attorney's being paid anyway, while you must hire one at $100.00+ an hour and spend thousands while Ford ties you up in a year of discovery and hundreds of depositions. I too am beginning to wonder if a T Bird is worth it.

[Rondor]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

Hi Again Doug,


I sure hope it doesn't come to that. It would be a lot less expensive and MUCH better PR for Ford to just produce the needed parts and support Thunderbird owners.

I would assume many of the parts are outsourced by Ford like PCM's. What is the time line on their prohibition from making and selling these parts? These would seem to be the Co's most capable of reproducing a part and also being able to call it an OEM part. I think more than 1 Co makes a T Bird headlight as an example. I would think that Ford would encourage it and possibly get a small royalty.

[HKS]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

Hi Doug,

Sorry you're having this problem, and you bring up a very good point; there are thousands of 2002-2005 Thunderbirds currently covered by Ford-issued ESPs, and you're not alone needing a part that is out of production. I spoke to another Retro owner earlier this week who is facing the same problem, though he does not have an ESP. The shop doing his repairs have bought (and later returned) rebuilt PCMS from a number of aftermarket companies including two PCMS from Cardone ... so far none have worked.

The PCM is currently shown as 'back ordered' by Ford, but with no release date. This basically means a customer or dealer can order one, but there is no estimate on when (or if) the part will become available.

As far as speaking to someone at Ford about this, I've spoken numerous times with the head of Ford Restoration Parts Licensing, and the VP of Warranty Engineering, and both have indicated that Ford has no plans to remanufacture OEM replacement parts for the 2002-2005 Thunderbird.

When I mentioned to them the problem with cars covered by Ford ESPs for which required repair parts were needed, their response was basically that there are a lot of 10+ year old Ford cars for which parts are no longer available, and when I asked if they were concerned about possible legal action as a result I was told, "Ford has a lot of lawyers." I could hardly believe a senior Ford employee would say something like that, but they did.

I don't know how all this will end, but I'm certain it will get worse before it gets better.

And no, the 'sky is not falling,' but for T-Bird owners like you, it's a pretty serious issue.

Incidentally, PCMS from Retros are not interchangeable. You can't take one from just any other Retro and 'plug it into' another. There are dozens of different part numbers for the 2002 alone, and many other superseded part numbers for the 2003-2005. The only way to ensure you get one that works is to cross-reference the PCM with the VIN, and regardless of where you get a replacement, it will need to be reprogrammed, despite the claims of some aftermarket companies who sell them.

Phil
The only way to ensure you get one that works is to cross-reference the PCM with the VIN, and regardless of where you get a replacement, it will need to be reprogrammed, despite the claims of some aftermarket companies who sell them.[/QUOTE]

Do you think Ford dealer's service will still have the equipment or knowledge for reprograming the PCM modules?

If Ford would release the programing code for the PCM, maybe someone would make an after-marked module. Should we ask Putin to help out?

HKS

[AZTB]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

It's threads like this that make me VERY nervous about dipping my toe back into the Bird pond.

[Sierra977]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

I would assume many of the parts are outsourced by Ford like PCM's. What is the time line on their prohibition from making and selling these parts? These would seem to be the Co's most capable of reproducing a part and also being able to call it an OEM part. I think more than 1 Co makes a T Bird headlight as an example. I would think that Ford would encourage it and possibly get a small royalty.

Do we know what company actually fabricated our cars various electronic modules?

I ask because in the 1990's I did work for Motorola in Seguin, Texas and that manufacturing facility built the engine control modules for GM's Corvette ZR-1 cars.

Did Ford do manufacturing of the electronic control modules? If not Ford then who?...

[Guest]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

I would assume many of the parts are outsourced by Ford like PCM's. What is the time line on their prohibition from making and selling these parts? These would seem to be the Co's most capable of reproducing a part and also being able to call it an OEM part. I think more than 1 Co makes a T Bird headlight as an example. I would think that Ford would encourage it and possibly get a small royalty.

Ford outsources most auto components to non-Ford vendors and suppliers, and theoretically, ANY part for ANY vehicle could be remanufactured depending on two main conditions; (1) the tooling still exists to produce the part and (2) the vendor/supplier deems it viable financially to do another production run.

Components like headlights, belts, hoses, brake pads, ignition coils and plugs are typically common to many different vehicles and relatively inexpensive to manufacture. Electronic components like PCMs, REMs and instrument clusters (which are mini-computers themselves), are another matter. They require special software, microprocessors, circuitry and programs proprietary to Ford. They also require 'cores,' the metal housings that hold all the circuitry.

Ford dealers do use one or more outsource 'remanufacturers' to rebuild various electronic components, however, these companies also require Ford-supplied parts and components to rebuilt and repair instrument clusters, radio/CD units and climate control units. If these companies can't get the parts they need from Ford, they can't rebuild or remanufacture the various modules, so it becomes a 'Catch 22' ... Ford dealers send units to the approved outsource rebuilder, but the rebuilder depends on parts and components that come from Ford suppliers like Visteon.

At some point, Ford will need to make a policy decision on how to handle these cases, which will increase in the coming months and years. I personally get calls nearly every business day from Thunderbird owners who need either an electronic module or instrument cluster that their Ford dealers cannot supply. The problem is affecting more and more Retro owners. It's unlikely that Ford has any legal obligation to make parts available for Retro owners NOT covered by Ford-issued ESPs. However, for owners of 2002-2005 Thunderbird that do have Ford issued ESPs, the situation is quite different.

Ford has a couple of basic options; (1) continue to fight each Thunderbird owner on a case-by-case basis, including those with Ford ESPs, or (2) make a decision to remanufacture the required parts, components and modules.

In my opinion, option (1) will become increasingly difficult, particularly as it relates to Retro owners with Ford-issued ESPs, to continue to battle owners with unresolved issues due to unavailable parts. At some point, and as these cases mount, some court or some judge is likely to say something like this to Ford: "So you continued to sell extended warranties to owners of a vehicle that you knew necessary replacement parts were unavailable for, and you refuse to remanufacture those required parts?"

That process could take years, and I'm not sure how many current Retro owners would be willing to hold on and 'wait it out.'

[007Cruiser]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

Do you think Ford dealer's service will still have the equipment or knowledge for reprograming the PCM modules?

If Ford would release the programing code for the PCM, maybe someone would make an after-marked module.
HKS

That's an excellent question for all manufacturers. Ford is not the only one that does this. It prevents you from working on your own vehicle.

[jerrym3]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

It's threads like this that make me VERY nervous about dipping my toe back into the Bird pond.

Can't say that I disagree.

I also think that Ford's halo car is the Mustang, not the TBird. (At my age, I really hate the word "halo".)

Unfortunately, those of us who loved TBirds through the years, regardless of model year, are aging or passing on. It's the guys born after us who now rule the market, and their car memories center around Mustangs, Corvettes, muscle cars, etc.

The next generation will probably favor foreign brands.

After that generation, it doesn't matter what they drive, because they will not be doing the actual driving.

"Siri, take me to the closest old car show"

"Sorry, I do not understand the request. Did you mean Car Snow or Car Slow?"

Of course, I'm just kidding around. (Or, am I?)

[Peterfurlan]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

If worse comes to worse all Ford has to do is give ESP holders a prorated refund. ESP's
that had no problems money in Fords pocket. I would think member Lou (Lmartun) should
have some answers as he sold many ESP's to forum members. Funny he hasn't posted
since he stopped selling ESP's in 2014.

[Guest]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

Good point John.

Ford might be able to get 'off the hook' just by issuing pro-rata refunds on the ESPs. They might also go a bit further by issuing full refunds, making them look almost 'generous' from a court or judge's point of view.

Total cost to Ford for such refunds on 2002-2005 Thunderbirds would be small, relatively speaking.

As to Ford disclosing who their suppliers are, I can tell you from experience that they don't openly share such information with the general public. Someone may be able to find out, but it won't be as easy as just asking Ford.

[11TH GEN]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

Phil: The Ford store my son is at obviously sells ESP's, however, they sell other aftermarket warranties as well. The advantage to some of the other warranties is that they only specify, with prior approval, labor and/or parts be performed by any ASE certified shop in the USA or Canada. Most of these shops are looking for business and not ways to turn it down.

[Guest]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

That's a good point ... aftermarket extended warranties can be less restrictive regarding the use of aftermarket parts vs. only OEM Ford (or any other make) or Ford-authorized/approved parts.

But the problem of availability of any alternate replacement part, aftermarket or otherwise, persists.

[wcoates]

Re: Valid ESP Contract but Required Part Obsolete?

I would think member Lou (Lmartun) ........ Funny he hasn't posted
since he stopped selling ESP's in 2014.

John probably has more to do with the fact that he sold his Thunderbird.

Phil believe you are right but as I know not a bit of Ford's way of operating I can only rely on my three years in GM purchasing. They would never share their supplier list/contacts with anyone.